Posts by refiners fire

Mini: "If a fulfillment of a prophecy is "spiritualized", who can say anything bad about it?... all "Jews" in the New Testament are only "spiritual" ones,"

Well that spritualization of the Jews in "Antitype" is a reaction to a false literal expectation as well.So thats another one, as you point out. The main thing about invisible fulfillments is they cant be disproved, so Id be inclined to say, one the dubs declare an invisible fulfillment of something, that tends to remain as immovable doctrine.

Miz: You have me at a disadvantage again regarding Scientology. I tried joining Scientology a few years back but blew the "entrance exam". I told the interviewer that Id been under psychiatric care once and been on prescribed medication for a mental condition. At that point I was sentenced to the "outer darkness". Noone who has taken medication prescribed by a psychiatrist can " cross the bridge" into utopia.

19

The necessity of "Spiritualizing" prophecy fullfillment

by refiners fire in

the watchtower organization has certainly, in times past, taken an absolute position on the matter of interpreting prophetic scripture passages.

but they are not the only ones guilty of that crime.

it is easy to demonstrate the same pattern from adventism, and ( as i have done previously) from many other churches of the ?born again?

refiners fire

"history buff".

I dont know about that, more of a nut who is obsessed with religious cults of all shapes and sizes.Lol. Ive been reading up on this Raven / Taylor "exclusive brethren" again Pris.They are pretty nutty and Id love to get inside the movement, but I think it will be pretty near impossible. You cant attend a meeting unless you are already a member, and their meetings are conducted in brick fortresses with no windows, no clocks, and surrounded by an eight foot high steel fence that is locked as the meeting commences.

The speakers dias in every one of their churches has a ramp built leading up to it IN CASE the world leader ( who is wheelchair bound) decides to visit. Thats like expecting that Milty Henschel might just pop in.

HMMM. could be a challenge this one, I think!!

51

Jesus came in 1874 and then changed to 1914, no problem, per FDS

by garybuss in

prefatory note .

(to watch tower reprints wtb&ts 1919) .

the watch tower is unique among all the publications in the world.

refiners fire

Well Gary, wading thru the material Ive got, it appears there was an expectation regarding the year 1851 which of course is 7 years after Christ enterted the Most holy of the "sanctuary" in Heaven. As this turned out to be a false expectation, Ellen G White is denied as ever having been involved in its being put forth as a possible "return" date. The best reference book Ive got: "Ellen G White and her critics" by Nichol (an Adventist apologist) Quotes from a pamphlet published by Bates (A founding Father of adventism) called: "An explanation of the typical and antitypical sanctuary" in which it is held that Christ will minister in the Most Holy 7 years before all the sins of Advent believers were redeemed fully and then He would return to earth to exact vengeance upon the wicked at Armaggedon. As I said before, a scapegoat is needed to accept responsibility for error (EG White being incapable of such) and this time it is Captain Bates. Of course, in a reading given in June 1850, (recorded in "Early Writings") Mrs White did say: "Now time is almost finished and what we have been years learning, they will have to learn in a few months". Which possibly indicates that she DID expect the end very soon thereafter.

I seem to recall an expectation revolving around the year 1884 also, which would be curious,as it is 40 years after the Sanctuary entry. Possible parallels to 29CE/ 70CE there? I must look and make sure.

I dont recall ANY mention of the year 1874 at all in Sabbatarian Adventism. So Im inclined to think it was purely the product of the breakaway group, who commenced their parallel calculations with 1844 equaling the year zeroCE ( or thereabouts) .... And Barry agrees.

51

Jesus came in 1874 and then changed to 1914, no problem, per FDS

by garybuss in

prefatory note .

(to watch tower reprints wtb&ts 1919) .

the watch tower is unique among all the publications in the world.

refiners fire

I might see if I can put something together on that one Gary. Leave it with me a while and i'll look thru my books. It wont be till later though cause im going to worship soon. lol.

19

The necessity of "Spiritualizing" prophecy fullfillment

by refiners fire in

the watchtower organization has certainly, in times past, taken an absolute position on the matter of interpreting prophetic scripture passages.

but they are not the only ones guilty of that crime.

it is easy to demonstrate the same pattern from adventism, and ( as i have done previously) from many other churches of the ?born again?

refiners fire

"Spiritualizing" scripture and prophecy has a long standing history. One of the early attempts is found in The City of God by Augustine. He tried to explain scripture in view of events occurring in his day... he allegorized the scriptures and applied them to the Church in Rome.

Miz: You have me at a disadvantage in terms of "City of God". I havent been able to wade thru that one. But based on my reading of what you say, I make an assumption that he took a "post millenialist" view of things and held that the Millenium had already commenced, which would mean the millenium extended from approx 500AD- 1500AD. So the Dark Ages were the millenium. Lol.

Thanks God. Great paradise there.

51

Jesus came in 1874 and then changed to 1914, no problem, per FDS

by garybuss in

prefatory note .

(to watch tower reprints wtb&ts 1919) .

the watch tower is unique among all the publications in the world.

refiners fire

Gary.

The "no meat eating thing" as you call it, is pure Ellen G White. Adventists are obsessed with Ellen G White. Mrs White espoused vegetarianism and so, because every word she ever uttered came to be viewed as a divine revelation, well, her views on health became doctrine as well.

If you go to an Adventist meeting or read Adventist books you will observe a most peculiar phenomena. To wit: Constant reference to what Ellen G White wrote. I think it fair to say that Adventists reference White vastly more than they reference the Bible, and their obsession is to constantly look at everything thru an EG White filter. Its most interesting reading their publications and watching them reinterprete things, shift blame for false prophecy to a scapegoat, and demonstrate that EG White predicted the "new revelation" all along. Their motto is "Ellen G White- is always right".

Their favourite scapegoat is an old and famous adventist called Uriah Smith. Uriah Smith is scapegoated as responsible for much of the false prophecy and error taught, while Ellen White remains lily white and unimpeachable. Practically all of the founding fathers of the church have been scapegoated at sometime or other to protect the image of the prophet. Adventists call her: "The Spirit of Prophecy"

12

What will the Watchtower do when all of the "annoited class" pass away ???

by run dont walk in

now, i am referring to the group before the 1935 cut-off date, will it even matter to them, because they is still a lot of "replacements" around you have replaced those who fell away.. another question, "could someone die, be brought up to heaven to help rule, and fall away up there ???".

watchtower's "new light" hhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmm.. or maybe another "new" heavenly class ???.

any thoughts .....................

refiners fire

They can either declare it a "figurative' 144,000 and reopen the privilege of entry to heaven to a new influx.

Or they will declare a church purification policy and introduce newly "revealed" doctrine, declaring Christ cannot come and restore the earthly paradise until the "spiritual paradise" is fully in place, the new practises assimilated into the church and the church has cleansed itself of recently revelated "impurities" in worship practise.

My money is on the latter.

51

Jesus came in 1874 and then changed to 1914, no problem, per FDS

by garybuss in

prefatory note .

(to watch tower reprints wtb&ts 1919) .

the watch tower is unique among all the publications in the world.

refiners fire

yeah Gary. Pretty bent. For SDAs EVERYTHING revolves around the Saturday sabbath. The sabbath revelation is the "third angels message". Its the defining mark of the true church. The antichrist beast will enforce Sunday worship. This is the "mark of the beast", Sunday worship. SDAs will know when the antichrist comes, even though he appears as Jesus, because he will initiate Sunday worship as law.

51

Jesus came in 1874 and then changed to 1914, no problem, per FDS

by garybuss in

prefatory note .

(to watch tower reprints wtb&ts 1919) .

the watch tower is unique among all the publications in the world.

refiners fire

An Adventist writer WD Frazee, describes lots of ?end time? events in his book ?Coming Events?. Among others:

??Its well for us to keep in mind that God never intended for time to run on and on, a hundred years after 1844.God intended the judgements that began October 22, 1844 to usher in the last scenes in short order. We are told that if all who accepted the first and second angels messages had united in accepting the third, then the world quickly would have been warned, and Jesus come long ago??

So basically the delay is because God is patient and still hoping that some Adventists currently out of favour with him will purify themselves enough to warrant life.

Heres another, from the same book, its a juicy one about some of the horrendous events soon to occur immediately before Christ returns. Frazee quotes Whites ?Early Writings? to demonstrate that an antichrist will masquerade as Jesus, even appearing to resurrecting the dead as part of the great deception:

? ? The saints are going to have to meet these devils. Devils claiming to be their dead relatives?.even when seeing something that looks just like a loved one, and talks like a loved one,, and then weeps when we wont listen, we wont break down.We can look it right in the eye and say ?You are NOT my wife. Youre the DEVIL! And in Jesus name I bid you go!!??

Sick huh?